Joanne Rund | Fire Chief, Baltimore County, Maryland
Chief Joanne Rund, giving her first remarks as Fire Chief of Baltimore County, swearing in ceremony, July 1, 2019
Monika Samtani in conversation with Chief Joanne Rund, Baltimore County, Maryland | July 2020
Monika
Hi everyone. I'm Monika Samtani, and this is The Fem Word. Our mission and vision is to be an inclusive space where women have a voice. It's all about bold women who share their journey and inspire us with their story. And today I'm very proud to welcome the fire chief of the Baltimore County Fire Department in Maryland and the department's first permanently appointed female chief. Welcome to The Fem Word, Chief Joanne Rund, and congratulations on your recent appointment.
Chief joanne Rund
Thank you very much. I'm very honored to be here and looking forward to chatting with you.
Monika
It must've been such an exciting moment when you were sworn in as chief in front of your family and your friends and all the people who have seen you work so hard to rise to this position? What was that like for you?
Chief Joanne Rund with her daughters and granddaughter, swearing in ceremony, July 1, 2019
Chief Rund
It was exciting and nerve wracking all at the same time, because you want to say the right words and you want to do the right things. And I'm the type of person, honestly, that does a lot of the work behind the scenes. I'm very humble about the things that I do and I put my team out front. It's very important to me that everyone sees the hard workers that actually get the work done. I'm the leader but essentially I'm not the boots on the ground that gets everything done. So when I stand out there, out front, a lot of times it's very nerve wracking. It's very important that you have the right words and do the right things and you get one shot at it.
Monika
And you do it so well. But unfortunately, Chief Rund it's 2020, and according to the US Department of Labor, nationwide only about 4% of firefighters are women, and many fire departments still have only one woman firefighter or none at all. Speak to us a little bit about that. What is the reason do you think for such low numbers of women in your field?
“There are still departments that don’t have female uniforms, even if they have a female. There are still women out there that are trying to fit into uniforms that are made for men and not custom made for them. It’s very interesting to see how backwards the industry still really is.”
Chief Rund
So there aren't a lot of women that are really attracted to - I'm going to say it - a very manly job - when it comes to the hard work that goes into it and, everything that you wear, and all of the training that you go through. Unless it's someone who is driven to do something along those lines, it's a hard to field to sell to those that may be empathetic when it comes to the EMS world. And want to go in an ambulance to help someone, but a lot of people shy away from it when you say, hey, let's go into a building that's on fire. So it's extremely important that we have the right recruitment teams out there to paint that picture for everyone and make everyone understand, "hey, you may not realize it but this very well could be a really good career for you." And you would think in 2020 by now that we would have surpassed that. There are still departments that don't have female uniforms, even if they have a female. There are still women out there that are trying to fit into uniforms that are made for men and not custom made for them. It's very interesting to see how backwards the industry still really is.
Monika
And are the physical tests discriminatory against women as well?
Chief Rund
No. So what happens with those physical tests is that if they're done really well, are actually designed based on the tasks that you have to do as a firefighter. Where it becomes difficult is the women that are preparing for that class need to understand where the strength has to be to prepare. So where we fail is the preparatory portion to get them ready for that test. The CPAT - Candidate Physical Ability Testing- is a perfect example. I hear a lot of people say CPAT is a physical ability test for the tasks that you're getting ready to do as a firefighter. I was actually the cheerleader to bring the CPAT to my previous department because [before that] we were doing push ups, sit ups, and running, and other tests that have absolutely nothing to do with being a firefighter. And we were getting people into the department that were getting hurt very early on because they were not conditioned and they didn't have the strength to be a firefighter. But, in order for it to be successful, anyone, not just women, anyone needs to understand what it takes to prepare to pass that test.
Monika
Men and women it doesn't matter. We're not talking about just for women, but everyone who is interested.
Chief RunD
Right, exactly. Now, there's lots of departments out there that are doing their own thing. They're running their own tests how they would like to see it and not necessarily validating it, and it's not necessarily applicable to what they're 100% doing. I'm sure that's still happening all over the place. I know in the State of Maryland - because I was involved with the Maryland Coalition - when we tried to unify everybody and have everybody come on CPAT that the physical ability testing is really focused on making sure that it gives you a well rounded applicant to pass through your test and get through your Academy and become a good firefighter with a good foundation so that they can reduce the risk of injury. And we worked really hard.
Chief Rund
That was back in 2010 roughly. We were working on that and trying to build what we call the Maryland Coalition, which was the group of departments that were trying to bring that test going. And a lot of us did. Although the paths are unique because we have two different paths that you can travel: EMS or fire. You couldn't give CPAT for EMS because it's a hundred percent designed for fires. You can design a test very similar just with EMS skills that can be done and then have that here. And we have a have a huge percentage of women in this department, but they're mostly in the EMS field.
Monika
What made you want to join the fire department and what was your experience like rising through the ranks up to the leadership role?
Chief Rund
What made me want to come to the fire department? I was actually a hairdresser. I was a master designer and I was a manager of a hair salon. That's what I thought my career was going to be. And one year my cousin was going through some marriage difficulties and came to live with us. He was a volunteer firefighter in Pikesville, Maryland and I was interested in him going to the fire station. I was like, this looks really neat, and asked him, “Can I ride with you one day?” And so I did, I went with him to the fire station one day and I just started getting intrigued and wanted to know more. And before you know it, I became a volunteer, I took the classes, I was going to the fire station myself and responding. And then the next thing you know, my co-manager, the owner of the salon, sat me down and said, you really have a passion for this much more than you do hair.
Chief Joanne Rund at Station 10 with Captain Dave Dryden
So the guys actually came to me at the fire station and said, hey, Howard County is hiring. You should try. I was like, oh no, I'll never pass that test. And I was an athlete in high school, so I was in shape. But, I never thought I could pass the firefighters test. So I went down and the rest is history. I got hired and went through the training academy. That was interesting learning what different sizes of the hoses were and the different parts of the hoses and the different ladder parts because all that was foreign language to me. But I loved it. I absolutely loved learning about it. I wanted to know more. Every rank that I climbed and everything thing that I did, I love the space and camaraderie when you're in a fire station, it's like a family.
At that time I was on a 24 hour shift. So I was literally living with these people, and I worked 24 on and 48 off. So I was living with them every third day. We worked together there, worked out together, go through the highs and the lows together. That's the one thing that I love about this career and you get to know people inside and out because of all the things that you go through with them. In that fire station life, of course I would see officers that were above me and think, "I can do that and I might actually be able to do that better." So then that would make me go for the next rank, and the next rank, and the next rank. And I saw things that I could change and make better.
Then when I took the Assistant Chief level, which is actually three from the top over in Howard County, I was just like, I think I'm done here. Because I was at 32 years. I think I've done everything that I can in this department, but I'm not done. And I got into an executive development program with the International Association of Fire Chiefs and loved that program and learned some very valuable things. And one of the things that they said was to apply to different fire departments, hone your craft if you want to become a fire chief. And I did. I used everything that one of the books that they had us read. I really memorized it and did exactly what it said. And here I am today.
Monika
Wow. That's inspiring. And what's interesting is you worked hard, you rose through the ranks, you proved yourself. And here you are. It's only been a year since you became chief. You've had to face pretty tough challenges, especially this year with the COVID-19 pandemic. And I believe receiving funds from the Cares Act has been on the low side for fire departments. Now, many people may not realize that with the demonstrations around the death of George Floyd, and others, firefighters have been playing a huge role in the safety of the protestors, but also have come under attack under some instances around the country. Talk a little bit about what you're facing with these challenges.
Chief Rund
Yeah. We are not trained and geared like the police officers are with ballistic vests and that type of safety equipment. On some calls, ones that we are worried about, we actually are flanked by the police officers. We had an instance the other evening where there was a protest near our fire station. So in order to make sure our personnel were safe, we made sure we evacuated that space and then put those units in other locations within the community to make sure that they could respond. We've been very lucky in Baltimore County, and I don't want to jinx myself with regards to the temperature of these protests. That could be much more violent than they have been.
But we've been very lucky. Although they've been aggravated, they've been very peaceful and our personnel are trained diligently to respect these citizens and be empathetic and professional. But we have many instances where our personnel are hit, beat, attacked. Of course we make sure that their safety is paramount. So we get police officers in there as soon as we possibly can and we get them taken care of if they're injured.
Also, the worry of the providers right now is of COVID, the protests, and knowing they have to be on duty and have to be out there because they are essential personnel. They don't get the opportunity in COVID to telework or to be isolated and away from everyone. They're the ones that have to be out there and be out front. It's very important to me that we provide tools to them so that they can feel as safe as they can. Unfortunately, no fire chief can say 100% that their personnel are always safe, but our goal is always to make sure we provide them the tools to be safe and do their job efficiently and effectively. It's a whole different world out there. Not anything that any of us have ever experienced and to have them all happening at the same time is really putting us to the test. That's for sure.
Monika
Not something that you expected to have to tackle as the new fire chief I'm sure.
Chief Rund
No, not at all. This is completely a surprise and I was prepared to have to work with different difficult situations. We've gone through scenarios and I've been trained for scenarios as I've come up through the ranks. I've had different training from the National Incident Management System and things like that. I don't have any forefront boots on the ground. I haven't been involved in it personally other than 9/11, when we all activated for that. That still resonates with me. So that's how I kind of kicked into that mode when we went into this pandemic.
Monika
Amazing and thank you so much for the work that you do, from all of us at The Fem Word and everyone that you keep safe. Thank you for that. You just mentioned 9/11 and other instances where you have been in the middle of a fire and putting your life at risk, take us to that place. What is that like?
chief joanne rund
“You're in immediate urgent mode of saving a life and you don't know until you get there whether or not you have a life to save. We go through steps: life first, property second. So when you're going in there you're immediately making sure that everyone is out of the home because if there's anyone still in there, that's an imminent rescue and everything else stops and focuses on that. It's almost like a serious adrenaline rush. It's very addictive.”
Chief Rund
So it just gives me chills when you said that. It's a passion and then it becomes a part of who we are. You get the call, you respond to the incident, and you can see the building is on fire. Each one of our units have positions on them, so we have the driver, the officer, and then we have the firefighters. Each person knows what their assignment is before we actually get there. You know what you need to do. You work as a team to mitigate the situation, whatever it may be. When we the arrive, the very first thing is making sure all my equipment is on and making sure everything is good to go. You're in immediate urgent mode of saving a life and you don't know until you get there whether or not you have a life to save. We go through steps: life first, property second. So when you're going in there you're immediately making sure that everyone is out of the home because if there's anyone still in there, that's an imminent rescue and everything else stops and focuses on that. It's almost like a serious adrenaline rush. It's very addictive. You'll see firefighters start laughing when they come out and they don't mean any offense by that, but it's just awesome because of everything that they just went through. It's so intense. They come out and they're like, "Phew". When people are watching us on the fire scene, it almost looks like we're not taking it seriously, but actually we're letting off steam from everything we just went through to try to take care of it. So I think it's really important that we educate our citizens on all of that, because I don't think they understand that.
There's a passion that goes with it. There's almost a drive. I still have it as a fire chief. Also it's very important that I continue to go on incidents. If I'm on my way to work and I don't have an immediate meeting and I hear a call go out that I'm close to, I try to go. I try to at least be there, let them see me, let them know that I care, and let them know that I'm thankful that they're out there doing this. These are unprecedented times and for them to overcome their own mentality to be able to still do that is huge.
Monika
Right. I'm sure it's important in two ways. It's important for your team to see that you are willing to come in and be there with them. Also, it's a reminder to you of what that's like for them. So it really goes two ways for you.
What advice do you have for young females who are trying to figure out their career path? Many look at this as a male dominated field, as we spoke about, and they may not feel that this is something they can pursue as fire chief. How do you propose to bring in more female firefighters into your own department?
Chief Joanne Rund with family
Chief Rund
So, I go into grocery stores a lot, and you can probably imagine, I'm in my uniform because I'm either coming or going from work. When I go in, typically somebody will stop me and thank me for what I do and ask how I got into what I'm doing. So, I take that opportunity to basically be a recruitment officer and let them know that you too can be a fire chief or firefighter. We can train you to be that. You don't have to know how to do that. My daughter doesn't want to go anywhere near it and I've been trying to recruit her for years. She has the same temperament. She has a fairly decent athletic approach to things. So I try to recruit her friends. I'm recruiting everybody.
Monika
I have a daughter!
Chief Rund
So, I'm my own little recruitment officer.
Monika
You have boots on the ground right now saying, "Come and join us!"
Chief Rund
That's right and I think that's important for a fire chief to do. I think it's important for them to be their own advocate for their own department when it comes to recruitment and bringing in the next generation and having input in that generation. Being involved in that hiring process and being involved in that selection process is so important and I do that here. I'm the last voice of that person that they hear. I'm the last person that looks over their applications. I'm the person that basically says whether or not they can come through the door and sometimes I have questions for them, like "I see this on your application. Can you explain it more?"
Monika
I bet they don't expect to come right to the chief and have to sit down with you.
Chief Rund
Yeah. They don't expect to see me at all and this is very nerve wracking for them.
Monika
You're trying to say, "Look, I want you here. I want to see you succeed."
Chief Rund
Yes and it's extremely important that we reflect the community that we serve. So, I have actually reached out to some of the community leaders in Baltimore County and told them that I'd like to build a relationship because I'd like to know how your community thinks and essentially how we can be more of a representative for your community. If there's anyone in your community that's looking for a job, let us come out, educate them on what it is we do, how we do it and see if there's any interest in there, because there are some communities that are actually afraid of the fire department because of their culture. There are some communities that do not think that this is a respectful enough position for them to be in, and they want their children to be doctors, nurses, and business owners. For them, I want them to know that we have college education. We have dreams to get where we're going. It's not so much of that blue collar job out that you think it is. So it's really important for us to be connected to the community for those efforts to happen well. I tell every last one of my people, "You are our best recruitment tool because you talk to people every single day. Every home you go in and every person you touch, you are our best recruitment effort." And in order for us to become reflective of that community, you have to be involved in that community in other ways than emergency response." So we work very delicately on that too.
Monika
As a leader, a chief, a mom, and a woman. Describe a moment when you felt powerful.
Chief Rund
When I actually got sworn in. That was a pivotal moment for me. When [the county executive] called me and asked me to be his fire chief, that was actually a very emotional moment for me, too. I thought, wow, I must be doing something right here and something good. And then when they actually swore me in, it was like I made it. Now I have to maintain it, but I made it. But like I said, I'm a very humble person, so I still don't walk around talking and acting like I'm the chief, but it's still becoming a part who I am. It's exciting. I'll tell you, it was probably two weeks when I finally got here when I realized how big this department is, but I never really identified with the size of this department versus where I came from and the surrounding departments. I went to a conference and somebody said, "you realize this is one of the biggest combination departments in the nation."
Monika
Really amazing. Thank you so much for your time Chief Rund. Thank you for your service and for keeping us safe. I really appreciate you being with us.
Chief Rund
Well thank you very much for the invite. I'm very humbled and appreciative of that.